Karabo Mathang-Tshabuse is a trailblazer, a pioneer and a leader in her field. The Director of P Management Agency, who doubles up as an admitted attorney, has been setting the local football scene and a number of courtrooms alight with her tenacious attitude and never-give-up resilience that has seen her carve a niche both in local football and in the law field. The Orlando-born lass is making her own mark in what was previously a male-dominated enclave. So, when Soccer Laduma's Delmain Faver called in on her recently, she was ripe for a conversation, and a wonderful one it turned out to be. From her early days in football agency, the gut-wrenching lows of failure to the dizzying heights of fulfilment, discovering a current Orlando Pirates superstar, Tshabuse opens up about a journey well-travelled.
Delmain Faver: Karabo, thank you so much for availing yourself to talk to the Soccer Laduma readers out there.
Karabo Mathang-Tshabuse: Thanks, guys, for the opportunity.
DF: Firstly, 16 years in the industry is no pap 'n vleis. How do you, as a female, decide that you are going into this male-dominated space and you're going to 'kill' it, which you've absolutely done?
KMT: So, I always tell the story that I didn't choose it, it chose me because, to be honest, when I entered the industry, I was 21 years old and I had no clue what I wanted to be, you know. So, I pursued a Political Science degree, but you know how you see sports and soccer as a hobby, as a passion. We'd play one paal (one pole) in the street, and when a group of us said, "Maybe we can do this", it was totally informal. We thought that this is easy to do, how hard can it be? That's when it started. It started like this can be my side job, but more and more I found that I was not focusing on my studies, and I would much rather be cutting deals, meeting with players, meeting with coaches, talking football. So, I think in 2007, it started very slowly, but by the time I sat down for the agent exam in late 2007/08 and I enjoyed studying to pass the exam, that's when I started to take it seriously and, as most people know, I failed. I failed that FIFA agent exam twice to pass on the third attempt and after I passed, there was this big celebration. It's almost like there's no way out now, I must just now do this thing. So, yeah…
DF: At the time, it was unchartered waters because, like you said, there was no other female agent around. Did you see that as a challenge?
KMT: I think the beauty or the ignorance of age is that I didn't see it as a gender issue because there were so few agents, in the first place, that were FIFA-accredited. There were only seven. The fact that they all happened to be men was number one indicator that I must fight this war for women. It's only as I started to actually practice, I started to represent, (that) I noticed that I'm the only lady in a boardroom, you know, negotiating. It did actually play on your mind, but not in any form like this is a hindrance. If anything, I saw it as a great platform to use in my favour. You know, if you are the only person in the room, chances are people are going to want to hear what you have to say, so I used it to my favour.
DF: Was it difficult to start attracting clients?
KMT: I didn't perceive it as difficult because our business model was a bit different to the normal 'let's go for the top talent in the league'. Our business model was 'let's find the unknown player, the amateur player. Let's pierce him into professional and walk a journey with him'. So, if you are talking to a player who is unknown, chances are they see you as help, so they were very happy to be associated with any kind of team that's going to help them. So, back in the day, we started with Tlou Segolela from the development into (Orlando) Pirates. There was no money because Kaizer Chiefs and Pirates were like, "But you found our players here. Uzoyenzani (What will you do?) What are you doing here? We don't need you. We don't need your help." But in any event, we kept that model even up to the point where we scouted and spotted Thembinkosi Lorch at Maluti FET College and we approached him. You know, Lorch was a bit of a difficult sign because he was like, "I'm not signing (with) you until I see what you can do." Luckily, we got him a trial at Ajax Cape Town, and that's when he signed with us. And so many people don't know the story that he then went on that trial, we paid for the flights and accommodation for him, and that's the risk an agent takes with unknown players.
DF: Was it from your pocket?
KMT: Of course! Where else? Whose other pocket can it be? You are talking about an unknown player, not the superstar he is today, you know. And Ajax received him, he was there for a week-and-a-half. We were giving him money for fast food because no one could cook for him and Ajax, who were in the PSL at the time, turned around and said, "No, thanks, he's not ready." Yeah, that's a little bit of our story. By the time he breaks into Orlando Pirates and he signs a contract, it's a relief because you are in debt.
DF: Was there eventually a return on investment?
KMT: Not (at) an entry stage. Entry-level players still don't enjoy very good contracts, you know, because they are not trusted. So, Lorch's first contract is a typical entry-level contract. I think it's only as his star rose could he command the numbers that he did, and unfortunately for us, our relationship with him had to be suspended. We kind of look after him in a different light now, only on his legal things… and it was because I had to go back to law school and downsize and close up shop.
DF: Now, as a rookie agent, you are dealing with some of the biggest clubs in SA football. Was it daunting sitting across the table from Dr. Kaizer Motaung and Dr. Irvin Khoza?
KMT: I sat across Ntate Khoza and I quite enjoyed my discussions with Ntate Khoza because for some reason, he enjoyed my lofty ideas about where football should be, so I went on a little bit of a charm offensive. My first interaction with Ntate Bobby (Motaung) was rough. It was like, you know, "Where do you come from? What have you done? You just want to come here and start taking the screws up the ceiling." Thankfully, though, the relationship today is pretty decent.
DF: What would you say are the key factors that go into negotiating a deal?
KMT: I have, like, three corner terms that I have to get right. It's the term and the option and when the option must be exercised, depending on how big the player is. You want to keep it short term, short option if the player, like, really wants to come in, you keep it the maximum of five years. So, you maybe make it three plus two. The term and the duration is important because that speaks to transfer, your ability to be able to transfer the player on. The second thing, of course, is remuneration. And if the remuneration is not right, like how can we incentivise it such that performance will equal greater remuneration? If there's a striker, his goals. If it's a goalkeeper, his clean sheets. Lastly, it's got to do with benefits and where he's trying to go. So, for instance, I will try and speak buy-out quite early. So, if I'm speaking to Club X, I would want it in the contract that if I get a deal worth X amount, it's an automatic trigger for release so that we don't have to hassle later in the player's life. So, those are my three things when I negotiate contracts that I absolutely have to have in. Of course, players will come in with other T's and C's, and whether they have sponsors and when I speak about remuneration, signing-on fees included.
DF: You mentioned that the modus operandi of your company is finding rough diamonds. Does it happen where you see a player has potential but it doesn't pan out the way you envision?
KMT: Yeah, it does, a lot. Those are the untold stories, you know, where either injury, mentality or just bad lifestyle choices will cause players to get terminated when the trajectory of their career was, like, set. Like, you could see that because of the talent, he is meant to be somewhere, but talent is not enough. I'll be honest enough to say there are those clients in the 16 years that we've represented that unfortunately came in and out of the industry and there was not much more you could do because unfortunately, some clients can develop a reputation of being a Bad Boy, you know. The one that assaults. Yeah, I think we can't underestimate that the role of the agent is really to enhance what is already happening on the field, off the field… like, we're just facilitators. We can't make magic happen and at the end of the day, it's the player who writes his success story.
DF: Was Cassius Mailula to the MLS your first overseas deal?
KMT: No, (it) wasn't the first overseas deal, but technically I think it's the first success story because the other overseas deal didn't turn out successfully. I won't go into that, but I think it's the first success story where his story is such a beautiful story. Of course, he's just started to play in the MLS, but I have quite great confidence that it's going to turn out well.
DF: He was at the best club in Mzansi in terms of remuneration, winning titles, ambition, so why move him abroad?
KMT: So, when we sit with our clients, they tell us the dream. So, we literally have a session where we say, "What is the dream?" Because our job is to help facilitate that dream, and his dream was quite clear: "I want to play in Europe one day." And so, as an agent, your role is to say, "How can we achieve this? How do we go from where you are now to where you need to be?" Looking at the age, looking at how he's performing, you know… and I think that when you have a quality talent who is so focused, it becomes easy. I think for Cash, when we showed and explored options to say the MLS is rising right now, the league is not only rising in terms of, like, money coming into it, but it's rising in terms of the eyeballs on the league, due to (Lionel) Messi, the numbers are just crazy… It then became easier working with a client who knows what they want, to say, "This option is not the ultimate dream, but it could be a great one." I think that's the HOW. We were given the instruction to send a wide network of scouts so that we could ultimately sidestep into where he wanted to go.
DF: Was there anything concrete in the Monaco talks?
KMT: I'm not commenting on rumours. No, I'm not. The fact is that he is where he is now and he has to respect the contract he's going into now.
DF: For a long time, you were the lone representative of females in the industry, but now we've seen a few others join, like your Mmatsatsi Sefalafalas, Moira Tlhagales, Basia Michaels, etc. Is it encouraging?
KMT: Absolutely! I think that if we are able to be more, then we are gonna be able to represent more people who look like us, females and males. You kind of curb against discrimination because after me, Basia is coming into her own. Yeah, I think it's high time. Sixteen years ago, I was the only one. Now there are a few of us and 10 years from now, there should be plenty of us.
DF: You are now part of the FIFA Legacy Programme, no small feat.
KMT: Oh, man, I think I let out a young scream because there's no guarantee that just because you passed in the last regime of 2009, you are automatically going to be taken in the new regime, and I think that is a testament of how much we put in to get that nod under Legacy. I think it just means that you are an OG. So, yeah, it means quite a bit to us.
